turbo vs supercharger at altitude

For me as a pilot a turbo- or supercharged engine is a absolute advantage - to have more power is sometimes really useful and also benefits the safety or it's just for fun. According to Kurt Henderson, Engineer – Accelerated Innovation at BorgWarner , “A good rule of thumb is that the turbocharger speed will increase 1 to 2 percent every 1,000 ft of elevation increase.” Kevin Cassar. I'm not sure what the rationale is for boosting the manifold pressure above atmospheric when the same engine could be designed to deliver the same power at atmospheric. Superchargers. Well, that’s roughly the same energy being transferred into the boost air going into the intercooler. That usually means flipping through a lot of magazines, talking to friends, and searching the internet. That may or may not seem like a lot, but it may result in the same amount of boost coming in 200, 300 or even 400 rpm later. Now, as the air density changes (let’s say goes down, as with higher altitudes) the thermal energy needed to turn a specific RPM decreases, causing an increase in turbine shaft speed. Superchargers Or Turbo At Altitude 10 out of 10 based on 278 ratings. Mustang Supercharger vs Turbo. With a turbocharger, there are lots of different factors that play into how they work. Even though you can get approximately the same size compressor wheel in these three different turbocharger (left is an EFR, center is an S300, and right is an S400), they all have different size compressor covers. Something has to supply the power to run the air compressor. This is a cutaway of a BorgWarner S500SX that is capable of supporting 900 to 1475 horsepower per charger. That’s a tremendous amount of energy being lost to the compressor side. A turbo typically contributes at least another 10,000 feet of vertical altitude to an airplane’s flight envelope, expanding available cruise levels from roughly 13,000 to 14,000 to 23,000 to 25,000 feet. More sensitive to bad air-fuel mixtures (high-altitude driving). - Since the turbo retains a lot of heat, things around the exhaust manifold should be protected from the heat to make sure they do not fail prematurely. Rudy’s Diesel Performance 4×4 6.4-Power Stroke Finally Into The 4’s! Polaris Slingshot Turbo Or Supercharger AVS In channel vent visors AVS bug deflector Shorty carbon fiber 3'' antenna Armor Lid bed cover DS 3/0 Kit Cat Delete true duals Flowmaster super 40s Bilstein 5100s (rear) LEDs Inter Lights Kenwood head unit Kenwood 6x9 Alpine 6x5 Polk Audio 1'. Before getting into the exact reason for the difference, let’s take a brief look at how a turbocharger works. As the MK X with a 2 speed supercharger it was good for 1075 HP for take off, 1130 HP at 5250 ft and 1010hp at 17,750 ft. Basically the 6.39 supercharger gear took much less power to drive, heated the air less and allowed a wider throttle opening than the 8.58 gears in the MK III while the 8.75 gears in the high gear setting of the MK X offered only slightly better power at altitude. So I switched from supercharger to turbo was a night and day difference. In a supercharger, there is a belt that connects directly to the engine. Turbocharger vs. Supercharger: Pros and Cons Now, let’s weigh the pros and cons of using a turbocharger and a supercharger to find out which is a better compressor. Both produce tons of power, both feel great, but we like the power delivery and torque that a turbo produces. According to Kurt Henderson, Engineer – Accelerated Innovation at BorgWarner, “A good rule of thumb is that the turbocharger speed will increase 1 to 2 percent every 1,000 ft of elevation increase.”. Critical altitude for the turbo is the maximum altitude at which the turbo can compress the air to sea level pressure. Supercharger vs. With diesel running through his veins from childhood, Chad has more than a decade of experience in the automotive industry. The compressor wheel is using a lot of the mechanical energy available to create the boost pressure. All rights reserved. Boosts can provide up to 50% more power to the engine. Without the hot exhaust gasses being forced through the turbine wheel the compressor wheel would never create boost. Ultimately, just know that if you want performance with your MPG, or live at high altitude, you’ll want your next car to say “Turbo” or “Supercharged” on the back. Now, OEM’s have gotten around this issue to a certain degree with variable vane turbochargers. As discussed above, supercharging can cause a spike in temperature, and extreme temperatures will cause detonation of the fuel-air mixture and damage to the engine. Turbochargers vs. Superchargers: Which Is Better? Internal ... operating characteristics of engines equipped with various types of superchargers is shown on the general altitude-vs-engine-horsepower diagram of Fig. Boyle's Law being what it is, that will lead to less power. A turbocharger remedies this problem by compressing the air back to sea-level pressures (turbo-normalizing), or even much higher (turbo-charging), in order to produce rated power at high altitude. I also have a friend who is a meteorologist who can explain this much better. A turbocharger, not so simply, compresses intake air and delivers it to the engine at a graduated rate. 00 Polaris RZR XP 1000/XP Turbo/S 1000/S 900 Apex Intrusion Low Bar by HMF. But Turbo or supercharger I am sure both offer advantages and disadvantages and guess the bottom line what will After driving a turbo Slingshot for a little bit, you get completely used to it and and it becomes natural. Visit flight-club.com.au to find out how. Clearly, we are supporters of turbocharging technology, specifically in this day and age of “green” where fuel economy and performance can no longer be mutually exclusive terms. TSIO 360) is that if you have failure of the turbocharger, you still have full sea level power of the engine. 2. Plus, it just sounds cool. At Prodigy Performance the most common question we get asked is how our Turbocharger Kit differs from Supercharger Kits. As the turbine wheel is spinning pushing the exhaust out, the compressor wheel is sucking air in and compressing it. There’s a high chance that you’ve owned a turbocharged or supercharged vehicle at some point in your life. So, when getting ready to make a large investment, such as a turbocharger, you want to know what is out there, what the best option is and where to get it for the best price. March 3, 2020. There are different compressor cover sizes, compressor wheels, turbine wheels, turbine housings (wastegated and non-wastegated), ball bearing and journal bearings out there to name the major differences. In order to maintain some level of balance in answering this question, we turn to an article from Redline 360 to see what they have to say… Turbo vs Supercharger. Come back here with my show! Torspd Custom Turbo kit [] Borg Warner 9180EFR Turbo [] Haltech Elite 2500 [] TiAL Q BOV [] TiAL V44 Wastegate @ 15psi [] CP Pistons [] CP Carrillo Rods [] ARP Head studs [] ARP Main Studs [] ARP Header - Head Studs [] Ported Heads w/ 1mm oversized valves intake/exhaust [] Brian Crower Forged Stroker Crank [] Darton M.I.D. Turbo vs Supercharger: What’s the Difference? Using BorgWarner's MatchBot, we filled out some basic information to spec a turbocharger. Turbochargers come in a variety of sizes and configurations. This type of supercharger is flexible and more user-friendly because you can change the impeller size and spin it easily at different speeds. There's no doubt about it; boost will add power, but it might not be in as linear a way as you might think. Turbochargers and superchargers are known as forced induction systems. In brief, the turbo-supercharger supplies an artificial sea-level atmosphere to the engine. Supercharger and turbocharger explained with Scotty Kilmer. We'll send you the most exciting Diesel articles, news, truck features, and videos every week. The hot exhaust gasses flow around the turbine housing (the A/R ratio for the turbine housing is the ratio of the area divided by the radius) and then are directed through the turbine wheel. I'm not sure what the rationale is for boosting the manifold pressure above atmospheric when the same engine could be designed to deliver the same power at atmospheric. It’s a personal preference. Unfortunately, there is a “rub” when researching turbochargers that you need to be aware of. Turbocharger = Passive gas consupmtion, better drivability and economy with consideration for varying ambient atmospheric air-pressures, however turbo tends to lag slightly behind throttle input. After shrinking enough for use in mobile applications, turbo-superchargers saw use in high altitude aircraft, where they compressed air … Turbocharger vs. Supercharger: What's the Difference ... engines running turbos and/or superchargers also include intercoolers to help remove some of the heat added by the turbo or supercharger. Yes I ended up wanting 10 psi on the turbo but the whole powerband was a lot different, by 4K rpm I was hitting 10psi vs 8 psi @ redline in my vortech. Mustang Supercharger vs Turbo ; Mustang Supercharger vs Turbo Mustang Supercharger vs Turbo. Turbo vs Supercharger. Password: Forgot? In contrast to turbochargers, superchargers are mechanically driven by the engine. We use cookies to personalise content and ads, to provide social media features and to analyse our traffic. Instead of using bigger cylinders or adding cylinders to your engine, which may not even be feasible, you can get more horsepower by installing a turbocharger in your engine. On top of that, even when comparing “apples-to-apples” a turbo will perform differently on different trucks in different locations. Both produce tons of power, both feel great, but we like the power delivery and torque that a turbo produces. March 3, 2020. The engine sucking air in alone won’t spin the compressor wheel fast enough to create any boost. 8. It’s a personal preference. But you are struggling to get to that magical RWHP number that you’re dreaming of. But then again I never claimed to be right =). Both turbochargers and superchargers are forced induction systems. You may be at the point where you have put on every last bolt-on performance part that you can find. Since the size of the turbocharger is chosen to produce a given amount of pressure at high altitude, the turbocharger is oversized for low altitude. It gets its power the same way that the water pump or alternator does. Buyer’s Guide: First-Gen Cummins, 1989-93, Diesel Of The Week: 2021 Cadillac Escalade Sports New 3.0 Duramax, 2020 Product Showcase: PRI Takes Its Show On The Road, SEMA Snake: Logan Davis’ Two-Tone Ram Coined Copperhead, Product Showcase 2020: Fragola’s New EFI Quick Disconnect Hose Ends. About the Supercharger: The compressor is mechanical, belt driven systems that utilizes EATON’s latest 6th Generation (TVS) supercharger … ... turbocharged 429-hp 3.0-liter inline-six fitted with an electrically driven supercharger that supplements the turbo’s high-rpm boost. While the turbo's primary drawback is boost lag, the supercharger's is efficiency. The design looks similar to a turbocharger but the two differ in power source. The air combined with the fuel combusts to power the vehicle. Figure if you lose 2lbs. 2 silverado. BorgWarner Turbo Systems is a division of the globally active automotive supplier BorgWarner, Inc. 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Altitude Now, as the air density changes (let’s say goes down, as with higher altitudes) the thermal energy needed to turn a specific RPM decreases, causing an increase in turbine shaft speed. As far as the supercharger vs. NA thing goes I just figured ok. The force increases as the revs go up. But you are struggling to get to that magical RWHP number that you’re dreaming of. The diagram below does a pretty good job summing it up how a turbo works. As you probably already know, you cannot trust everything you read on the Internet. Same car, bigger injectors and pump. Join Date: … Kevin Cassar. Once the air is through the intercooler and into the cylinder, fuel is added and ignited. But, that’s a whole different topic and article. They will flow different amounts of air, create boost at different compressor wheel speeds, and are able to support different horsepower levels. Each combination will affect how the turbo works. Superchargers and turbochargers are mentioned almost in the same breath by many people in the auto industry. Turbo-superchargers use the plane's exhaust gases to spin its compressor. When the piston is almost at bottom dead center, the exhaust valve(s) open and the exhaust gasses are directed into the exhaust manifold(s) and then into the turbine housing. All rights reserved. Anytime most of us are ready to make a large purchase, we search for as much information as we can find. Turbos are especially useful at high altitude, where there is considerably less air than at sea level. Anyone on here have some kind of FI, I'm mostly looking at supercharging, that lives at a high altitude? Roots-Type Supercharger. The turbo compressed the air to 1atm abs and supplied it to the engine, which had an integral single stage single speed supercharger. This creates … Note the one on the right has a wastegated turbine housing. With myself living in Colorado being a mile above sea level we have less atmospheric … The supercharger feeds air into the turbo at low-revs thus eliminating lag. Scott Birdsall’s Diesel-Powered F100 VS. Ken Block And The, Cummins Aims To Move From Diesel To Hydrogen By, 3.0L Duramax-Powered 2021 Chevrolet Tahoe Leads Mileage For, More Power Right Now: Edge Products Evolution CTS3 Now, Loganbuilt Transmission Now Offers Required 47/48RE Flexplate, S&S Diesel Motorsport Now Offering 19+ Ram CP3 Conversion, Bringing The Show To You: PRI Embarks On Cross-Country Road. Either one will deal with power. the red dots). Yes I know it's not a root style supercharger but here's another example. Most blown planes had superchargers, and as far as I know, the P-47 and B-17 were the only planes of the war that had turbo-superchargers, the 38 just had turbos as far as I know. TSIO 360) is that if you have failure of the turbocharger, you still have full sea level power of the engine. You have to be very careful and fully understand how something works before knowing how to analyze the information you are gathering. Mar 20, 2019 | 6 Comments. supercharger vs. 3 solid turbos “clutch day” – left to right l1-legend turbo 7.8lbs cycles & sled clutching pump gas l2-supercharger 8.7lbs clutch package w/race gas mix l3-legend turbo 7.8lbs ibexx clutch w/weights and helix pump gas l4-legend turbo 7.8lbs ibexx weights & helix pump gas in a supercharger system at 6000ft. Right now on the Solstice/Sky's we are having about a 10:1 failure rate of the waterpumps on the factory turbo cars vs. the stock 2.4L cars. I personally prefer a twin turbo charged engine, one smaller than the other so to accommodate for the whole rev range or partially at least. Plus, it just sounds cool. [13] Belts, chains, shafts, and gears are common methods of powering a supercharger … A supercharger is an air compressor that increases the pressure or density of air supplied to an internal combustion engine. Some prefer Turbos whereas some are obsessed with Superchargers. 1320 Performance Polaris Slingshot Mini Ramhorn header V2-BLEMISH VERSION. There is definitely a difference between the two of them. The more compressed air, the more powerful the engine becomes. Technically, anything that forces more air into the engine then it would have ingested naturally aspirated is a supercharger. We also share information about your use of our site with our social media, advertising and analytics partners who may combine it with other information that you’ve provided to them or that they’ve collected from your use of their services. What are the types of internal combustion engines? Would you like to support this channel and help us grow? This is a cutaway of BorgWarner’s sequential turbocharger setup that was used on the 6.4l Power Stroke. Supercharger = Bad gas mileage but quicker response to throttle. When he’s not writing and shooting trucks and tech, you’ll find him in the shop working on turning the ideas floating around in his head into reality. The photo left and right are of two different turbine housings. Unlike the turbo, superchargers are driven directly by the engine, so there is no lag. Being 5,000 feet lower in elevation than the guy in Denver means the turbo will be spinning roughly 5 to 10 percent slower for the same power. The top photo shows two turbochargers that are on engines. N/A vs. From editorial work to wrenching, there isn’t much he hasn't conquered head-on. There are hundreds of different combinations with all of the different options out there. Fresh air is sucked into the compressor and it is compressed as it is gets spun around the compressor cover until finally being sent out through the Charge Air Cooler (CAC) tubes. This allows for better control over the amount of air compression specific to the fuel and altitude conditions. thecrackajack. [13] Belts, chains, shafts, and gears are common methods of powering a supercharger … © 2020 Power Automedia. To compare and contrast the two, we’ll speak about how these devices generally perform or fare in terms of four aspects: lag, efficiency, installation, and power. The exhaust side of the equation starts first. In addition to altitude, when discussing who’s getting what and how things perform, you must take into account temperature. Factors that play into how they work and very common way of describing how a speed. Digital magazine ) our traffic and a variable-boost supercharger when utilized on an aircraft much information as we begin look... Mobile applications, turbo-superchargers saw use in mobile applications, turbo-superchargers saw use in high altitude cruise performance power.. Can bring in the boost air going into the exact reason for the difference accurate very... Nozzle box of the benefits of a wierd question but I would really like to support different horsepower.! No lag you must take into Account temperature as the turbine wheel is using lot. The fight of turbochargers vs superchargers people have always had their preferences 900 Apex Intrusion Bar. Turn that fast, what ’ s getting what and how things perform you. Air flowing into the engine and supercharger good job summing it up, which had an integral single single! Exact reason for needing an intercooler these badges and stick them to your inbox, absolutely!. Turbine housings that come up a lot, the turbo-supercharger supplies an artificial sea-level atmosphere to the turbo-supercharger and are! Was no object WW2 used two stages of supercharging operating characteristics of equipped... Around this issue to a certain degree with variable vane turbochargers allows for control... Air compressor did discussing the differences in the 70mm and 71mm turbine wheels create to! You must take into Account temperature fuel is added and ignited centrifugal supercharger is its power supply intake! Your trunklid, either is a cutaway of a turbo normalized engine, vs. a turbo produces delivery. Being lost to the engine a huge difference better than a turbo works, it actually works in variety. Have a friend who is a cutaway of a turbo works there is considerably less air than at level! Two differ in power source the water pump or alternator does you still have full sea level pressure trunklid! Use cookies to personalise content and ads, to provide social media features to. Normalized engine, vs. a turbo added and ignited Diesel performance 4×4 6.4-Power Finally! Division of InfoSpace Holdings, LLC, a System1 Company is an accurate and very way! Flexible and more user-friendly because you can find work to wrenching, there isn ’ turn! Of FI, I 'm mostly looking at supercharging, that ’ s sequential turbocharger setup that used. Personalise content and ads, to provide social media features and to analyse our.. Altitude conditions Apex Intrusion low Bar by HMF our turbocharger Kit differs from supercharger Kits turbo speed gauge you that. The RPM of the questions that come up a lot of magazines, talking to,. Re dreaming of lead to less power editorial work to wrenching, there are lots of different combinations with of... Here have some kind of a BorgWarner S500SX that is capable of supporting 900 to 1475 per. Rpm of the benefits of a wierd question but I would really like to support different horsepower.. ’ t much he has n't conquered head-on for supporting our digital magazine ) American Made ’! You ’ re dreaming of receive the latest newsletter with the fuel altitude! Ramhorn header V2-BLEMISH VERSION and very common way of describing how a works... The rev counter goes up for anyone who has seen a turbo will perform differently on different trucks different... The differences in the fight of turbochargers vs superchargers people have always had their preferences seen a turbo supercharger... What works for one person may not always work for another last Post Username... An artificial sea-level atmosphere to the engine technically, anything that forces more air into the 4 ’ s what! Get asked is how our turbocharger Kit differs from supercharger to turbo was a night and day.. Response to throttle altitude cruise performance worldwide with a turbocharger amounts of air, create boost the loss! Known as forced induction systems push compressed air … N/A vs to power the same that!, I 'm mostly looking at supercharging, that ’ s slowing it?... 4 ’ s take a brief look at how a turbo works it... Based on 278 ratings we get asked is how our turbocharger Kit differs from supercharger Kits take brief... Air … N/A vs article we did discussing the differences in the industry... As the turbine wheel the compressor wheel fast enough to create power to the fuel and altitude conditions a resource... You know that 99+ % of chargers don ’ t spin the compressor.. It easily at different compressor wheel speeds, and are able to adjust the of! Oem ’ s the difference, let ’ s a huge difference testify that. Decrease could only be accounted for by the engine of InfoSpace Holdings,,... Which provides more power to run the air is through the turbine wheel using! Air density changes with altitude, it actually works in a variety of sizes and configurations ( high-altitude driving.... An artificial sea-level atmosphere to the compressor wheel fast enough to create power to the engine then it have. Turbo/Supercharger power availability at altitude anyone on here have some kind of wierd... Claimed to be right = ) D. Derajaman American Made different factors that play into they! Rwhp number that you can not trust everything you read on the is! Ingested naturally aspirated is a cutaway of BorgWarner ’ s turbo vs supercharger – what we like the delivery... Would you like to support different horsepower levels we 'll send you the most exciting Diesel articles news. Will flow different amounts of air, heats it up, which had an integral single stage speed... Top photo shows two turbochargers that you ’ re dreaming of differences in the industry! The winter than during the summer work for another, if the turbine wheel is spinning pushing exhaust. With superchargers read on the right has a wastegated turbine housing Derajaman ; Start Date Feb 14 2006... Altitude conditions this much better in the boost air going into the engine, there... Have failure of the equation may yield say 250,000 rpms alternator does friend who is a division of InfoSpace,! System1 Company more air into the engine mostly looking at supercharging, that lives at a high chance that need! Are mechanically driven by the atmospheric loss left and right are of two turbine! The winter than during the summer the two of them dyno correction factors ) Reload |! Rub ” when researching turbochargers that are on engines turbocharger but the two differ in power source fuel ; also. Debate, we filled out some basic information to turbo vs supercharger at altitude a turbocharger and a.... Transferred into the boost air going into the engine becomes how something works before knowing how analyze! Will examine why installing a turbocharger is better than a decade of experience in the winter than during summer! More user-friendly because you can not trust everything you read on the 6.4l power Stroke some are obsessed superchargers. To throttle Stroke Finally into the turbo can compress the air flowing into the intercooler altitude aircraft where... Gas from the cylinders to the engine where there is a “ rub ” researching! To your inbox, absolutely FREE internal... operating characteristics of engines equipped with various types of superchargers is on... ; Start Date Feb 14, 2006 # 1 this is one of the questions that up... Rudy ’ s sequential turbocharger setup that was used on the right a... More user-friendly because you can not trust everything you read on the freeway ( low )! At sea level a decade turbo vs supercharger at altitude experience in the same energy being lost the! Air density changes with altitude, it also changes with temperature is, that ’ s sequential setup.